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Category: Networking Help
Networking Question

This Question is probably pretty easy for most of the bright people on this forum..

I am looking to network my 5 computers with a shared internet access from a router through DSL etc etc..
The DSL Phone Line is on one side of my house, where 2 comps are, the other 3 are at the other side of the house (Where a prexisting network is.)
My pretty Drawing:

Net
|
|
Router C3
/ | \ /
/ | \___________________ ? /____ C4
C1 C2 \
\
C5

What goes where the Question mark is? A Router or a Hub or what? Do I need to do anything special to the initial router to make this work? (Basically, How do I configure all this?)
Any recommendations on Brands?
And will Online Gaming work on Comps 3/4/5?

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to explain this to me..

Considering it really messed up my drawing..I shall now explain it.
1. Net comes into intial Router, Branches out to Comp 1, Comp 2, and a Long Cable to go accross the house.
2. Long Cable goes to a (This is where the question mark is) and branches out to Comp 3, Comp 4, and Comp 5.

Thanks.

Sorry that I can't answer your question, but:
put that "drawing" into [ code ] tags.

A hub should do the trick just fine. I am assuming most of the traffic between C3, C4, and C5 will be out to the net rather than amongst themselves, so you dont need any heavy duty equipment to handle switching or routing. Metaphorically speaking, the hub you insert at the queston mark is going to be similar to a power strip.. its all on one circuit, but it just gives you multiple outlets.

I purchased a 4 port DLink hub for about 20 bucks... Im not sure what the other prices run.. it all depends if you are going to prepare for any future expansions, like adding another PC over by 3, 4, and 5.

About gaming. It should work, I dont know much about proxy servers and firewalls, so Im not the best for that question. Hopefully someone else in this forum can help you with that.

The traffic between the comps 3/4/5 will be mostly the net, with minimal file/printer sharing.
Next Question - Should I buy the same brand of Router & Hub? (Would it make it easier?)
- Does the long cable go into some kind of WAN part on the Hub?
- And will file transfering be availble between 3/4/5 & 1/2?

Never done any networking besides a simple plug all the comps into a router, So I am kinda clueless.

Check your router's documentation - they might state that any addition DCE (Data Communications Equipment) has to be the same brand. Most do not, so I dont think buying a different brand hub should have any problem.

The hub will have a port named "Uplink" make sure your cable that goes to the router is plugged in that port. A 4 port hub will typically have 5 actual ports.

What OS are you running on the 5 PCs? The Windows Network Neighborhood feature will detect the PCs automatically, as long as the NICs, protocols, and naming convention is all correct. This will properly enable file sharing, creating a peer-to-peer network, so no authentication or servers are required. If you want a client-server network, you can probably set up a file / authentication server, as well as a firewall, on one machine, and dedicate that as the server, and then you will have to set up user accounts, mapped drives, etc, to share files.

But on a simple Windows peer-to-peer network, everything should be set automatically. If you are running Linux, you will need to install Samba to take care of file sharing.

Anything else, just ask.

Thanks,
Two of the Comps have Win 95, Two more 98, and a last XP.

Whats a Client Server Network?

And also, The Cisco 678 is decribed often as a "Router", does that mean I dont have to get another router for the network, and just use an ordinary hub (now 2 hubs) instead?

Since all five machines are running some version of the Windows operating system, you shouldnt have any problems getting the machines to recognize each other on the network. The only problem might be the WinXP machine recognizing the Win95 machines - since they are such extreme versions.

If there arent any problems, upgrade the two Win95 machines to a newer OS.

About client-server networks: these are the types of networks you see more in schools and businesses - where you have to log in to the system and each user might get some access to programs, files, storage space, or printers that are connected to the server. This is probably too complex for a 5 computer network, and should be thought about if you have at least 10-15 computers on your network.

The CISCO 678 ADSL router should just be used as your gateway to the outside world. I have attached a GIF image of how your network can be set up.

Now, you are going to need some IP address scheme for your network, since you have a DSL connection with one IP address, and five machines, and all five machines cannot share the one address. To accomplish this, check about setting up a proxy server. If your router is managable, you might be able to enable some sort of proxy server right on the router itself. I am not too familiar with proxy servers, so you might want to post another thread somewhere on the board and maybe someone can help you with that.

Any other questions about the networking, please feel free to ask me.


-Sam

Thanks for the Drawing, that is pretty much what I am thinking, though I am pretty sure the Cisco 678 doesnt have two ports so I am guessing I have to get a Router..I will ask my ISP. Do routers setup Proxys? I have a current 56k Router (Sad) for the 3 comps and dont recall having to setup such.

I dont know much about DSL connection sharing, but I know that you cant get Linksys 4-port cable routers as well as single-port. You might want to check if CISCO offers a multiport DSL router before you go spend $2,000 for a larger router.

It might even be easier to do something like...



|
|
___|___
| router |
|______|
|
___|___
| hub |_______________ C3
|______|_______________ C4
| | |_________________ C5
| |
C1 C2


Rather then spending the money for a second hub, it might be cheaper to run 2 more strands of cable to the other machines, plus you will only need one port on the router for the hub to connect instead of requiring two ports on the router.

About the proxy server - most more expenive CISCO routers have a IOS, a proprietary CISCO Internetwork Operating System, that allows you to Telnet into the router and set access lists, protocols, etc.

Look carefully at the router specs before purchasing one. If it doesnt have the OS on it, then you probably cannot log into it from your network to set it up as a proxy server. If it does have Telnet capabilities, there isnt a guarantee that you can set it up as a proxy. If this is the case, you can put a second NIC into one of your machines, and stick it between the hub and the router, so all traffic goes through the computer. I have no idea if you can get proxy shareware or who makes proxy software, I think Norton does. Check around.

-Sam

I don't see why you would need a router, unless your DSL provider gives you multiple external IP addresses. I have a home DSL network set up, sharing the internet with several Windows and Unix computers. My way of dealing with this is probably more for the Unix wannabe, than for a Windose-only person, but it was fun to set up:



[Internet]
|
| [FreeBSD NAT firewall]
| / \
| [Ethernet1] [Ethernet2: gateway]
| (external IP) (internal IP 192.168.1.1)
| / \
[DSL Modem] \
(xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx) [10-port hub]-----------------[any other hub]
external IP address / | \ \
[computer 1] | [computer 3] [any other computers]
|
[computer 2]


The beauty of this is that I can run any combination of networks and domains inside the firewall. Internally, at the moment I run a combination of Windows, FreeBSD, and Linux, but I can actually add any kind of computer that supports TCP/IP.

I have seen businesses have so many problems and headaches with Windows proxy setups that I am very thankful for FreeBSD. Any cheap old computer will do, even a 486, although it will take an hour or two to recompile the kernel for ipfw. Just slap two old 10-megabit network cards in (Your DSL connection is even slower than these so 100 MBit cards are useless), Then, FreeBSD provides a very simple and well-documented method to set one card as the external IP, and one as the internal IP. Then, you just set the internal IP as the gateway to your Windows computers (or any other computer). Give your internal machines IP addresses from the private range of 192.168.x.x or 10.x.x.x. In fact, if you want to run the FreeBSD DHCP daemon, then you can just boot your Windows machines with DHCP, and they will automatically have protected IP addresses. This method also protects your Windows machines from direct attack, since no one from the outside can directly ping the IP address of your Windows machines. You can also set up extra protection, with the FreeBSD firewall rules, such as disallowing port 139 (windows NetBIOS).

To set up your internal Windows network, just do what you would normally do, since it doesn't affect the FreeBSD firewall in any way.

This is actually what most of those commercial home firewalls run internally anyway. It's usually some cooked-up version of FreeBSD or Linux.

See the following links, if you are interested:

http://www.freebsd-howto.com/HOWTO/Ipfw-HOWTO
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2001/04/25/FreeBSD_Basics.html

Thanks for answering a few of my questions. Learn something new everyday. I downloaded an ISO of FreeBSD the other day and was planning on playing with it sometime, now I have a reason too.

Thanks for the information.

Thanks for all the ideas, I am not really looking for each comp to have its own ISP...the DSL Service doesnt come with em. And I have no idea what BSD is.

Probably going to go with a D-Link Router and Switch unless you all think thats a horrible brand? They are cheap..And sometimes that doesn't also mean they dont work.

Also, Will the Router or the Switch assign the IP Address to the computers that are coming off the Switch? (Connected to it)

I didn't mean that each computer would have its own ISP (is that what you meant?). But internally, you could for example have more than one Windows network, each with its own workgroup or WINS domain. But, with the other computers in the other part of your house, you don't really have to think of them as "another" network. They can all be part of the same network. You can chain hubs or switches together. Just take one port of your main hub and run a cable down to the other hub, and continue as if all computers are on the same network, because they are.

The point is, all of this would be using IP addresses which are not visible on the Other Side (the Net). BSD is simply a Unix operating system, very similar to Linux, which can handle firewalling and internet connection sharing (or Network Address Translation).

Most of the home DSL firewall/router/hubs out there actually implement something of this nature automatically, I was just showing how to Do It Yourself, for those DIY geeks out there ;). If this is what you mean, then you should be OK. But these are not really routers. I thought you were referring to a real router, such as a business would have in the networking room. These should really be put in the category of "internet appliances", but they will do the job just fine.

D-Link isn't a bad name, but for low-cost network equipment, I usually recommend Linksys. They aren't 3Com, but they are pretty good, overall. Yes, your DSL router/firewall should have no trouble automatically assigning IP addresses.

Sorry, Did not mean own ISP, Own IP Address.. Not that dumb. :) So basically what your saying is is that even though they call it a "Router" I still have to get a broadband router as well? I am getting mixed responses on this on the multible forums I am posting on around the net.

From another form (Located at dslreports.com):

JSmith writes:
I don't really know what "Router" actually means.

I have DSL, the Cisco 678 goes into the wall & into the hub (with the yellow crossover cable). It goes in the first port of the hub, and I have a switch (on the hub) for the first port - normal, or uplink. It's on uplink.

Then my other computers go into the hub - with normal network cable. Works great with both Linux and Windows. All online at the same time.

Setting up the modem when I got DSL was a pain. At first, my ISP was Qwest.net with Qwest DSL - should have been simple, but they decided to charge me for "Small Business" because I was networking . When I switched ISPs after the first month, I had to go thru some convoluted stuff making the 678 work with my new ISP. They called it a router. *shrug*

even though they call it a "Router" I still have to get a broadband router as well?

No, not at all. What I'm saying is that you don't need anything with the advanced capability of a true router. One of those basic "netpliances" will do just fine, such as the Linksys Cable/DSL router (http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?grid=23&prid=20), which I believe you can get for under $80. I also just searched Cisco.com and realized that the Cisco 678 is just another one of those (but, knowing Cisco, it probably costs a lot more).

The Linksys one I mention above can handle up to 253 distinct computers inside its firewall. This is because it is set up to handle one complete class C network block (255 addresses), minus its own IP, and the IP of the DSL modem. With my home-built FreeBSD solution, I am free to support many more IP addresses than that, of course (I'm going to need a bigger house :0).

So, it goes in this order:

1. DSL modem
2. Router/gateway/firewall/netpliance
3. Network hub or switch
4. other computers or additional hubs

I believe Linksys even has an appliance that combines the first two into one, also.

Okay all im trying to do is setup a newbie network here..nothing fancy. Now you said I don't need a Broadband Router..But do need a Linksys crapolot? Thats what I meant by Broadband Router..If i am using the wrong word tell me.
THE QUESTION:
SINCE THE CISCO 678 is described as a "ROUTER" do I still need a Linksis/D-Link/Netgear Router or just skip to the Hub/Switch?
Ye? Ne?

OK: big difference between the terms "Router (http://www.dialtone.com/ourfacilities/tour/tourpics.php?picname=tourrouter)" and "Broadband Router". A Router is the thing you don't need; a Broadband router is the thing you do need. So the little Linksys dealybob would be just fine.

To reiterate: Item #2 in the list from my previous post can be covered just fine by the Linksys Cable/DSL router (which is a "broadband router"). Don't need anything more advanced than that.

It's understandable the confusion between the terms. At a certain level they do some of the same things, but I think the best way to describe these appliances should be "broadband gateway". But apparently business/marketing types think differently. Hope this clears it up.

Enjoy ;).

Thanks!










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